Digital is Dumb

I just bought my wife a new film SLR, so this may seem a bit
self serving, but...
We are photographic dinosaurs. Of the three cameras I use
most frequently the panorama has no meter, my 35 is a rangefinder
with match LED and my medium format has only aperture priority.
My wife was using a Canon AE1 with a zoom. I've never used a
camera with a zoom. While I do all sorts of fancy scanning and
Photoshopping she sends her color negs to a mail order photofinisher
and gets back 3x5's which she puts in albums. No fuss, no muss and
10 cents a print.
So the new camera came as a big jump in technology. Not only does
it have a much bigger range zoom (28-200), it has motor wind,
auto exposure of many flavors, and auto focus as well. All this for
under $500.
As Father's day is coming up the media is filled with ads for new
cameras - all digital. The SLR features seem to be about the same as the
film camera in terms of functionality, but the cost is more like double
the film camera. The performance may or may not be
better than film depending on the megapixels and the print size. But for
people like my wife, who I think represents the bulk of the picture
takers, I just don't see the advantage. If she doesn't want to fuss with
memory cards, computers and home printers, then she needs to take her
images to a local photofinisher. The costs of prints will be the same or
higher and she has to wait to get them back just the same. So the only
cost savings in the actual film itself. At about $3 per roll that extra
$500 will take many years to amortize.
So what's the incentive? The ability to look at the picture on the
built in screen? With modern automated cameras almost all pictures come
out well. It seems to me that for this type of user the digital
revolution has been oversold. This may help explain why so few images
are printed out, it is just too much effort.
--
Robert D Feinman
Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
http://robertdfeinman.com
mail: robert.feinman@gmail.com

Robert Feinman


Re: Digital is Dumb

I think this forum is great the way it is. There is something here for
everyone, and most of us (even dedicated film users) have entered into the
digital world to some extent. If nothing else, the film users are forced to
digitize their images in order to show them to others on the internet.
During the transition period between film and digital, there are going to be
years of discussions as to how to convert over from the one to the other,
either because of old film images that have to be converted, or old
equipment that can be partially utilized in the new medium. And this forum
can handle all these discussions, and provide advice to almost anyone in
photography today.


William Graham


Re: Digital is Dumb

Projected slides are a bit too dim for me to enjoy.....Perhaps my vision is
getting too bad. Also, You can't retouch them, and the retouching ability
that is afforded by Photoshop on scanned slides is nothing short of amazing.
I have slides that I have looked at for years, and not noticed some little
detail in them until I scanned them into my computer and started to retouch
them. The "nude" in my "junk city" photograph on pbase is an example. I have
shown that slide through a projector on several occasions, but didn't see
the detail until I scanned it into my Photoshop program. Also, it gives one
the ability to crop.....I was never able to do this with slides before.


William Graham


Re: Digital is Dumb

So lets look a bit closer at that image. I mostly like it but I was
limited at the time but a number of things. The only lens I had with
me was a 50mm and that shot really needed more like a 35mm. The film
was not process as well as I would have liked and has much more noise
in it that I would have liked. I am afraid that image would not make a
very good-looking 8 x 10 print, much less a 12 x 18.
So whereas I like the image a wider lens a better film and processing
would have given me an image more to my liking. So the image was
mostly about being at the right place at the right time, but would have
been a lot better with different gear.
Scott


Scott W


Re: Digital is Dumb

I shot 35mm for years before switching to digital. When comparing 35mm
film and digital you have a fairly complicated maxtrix of choices,
which film, camera and workflow do you compare to which digital camera
and workflow.
Film does not have the problems with dirty sensors.
You can do 30 minute or longer exposures with film with ease.
The viewfinder in a film camera gives a larger and brighter view then a
consumer DSLR has.
Film does not suffer from moir=E9.
Unless you buy a high cost DSLR you don't get a FF with digital, making
wide anlge lenses cost more.
Now note that all of these advantages also are shared by MF camera. As
you know my feeling is that if you are going to put up with all the
disadvantages of film you might as well shoot MF and get some really
nice photos.
My own feeling is that digital is my no means perfected, but it is
getting better all the time.
The problems that are there can be worked around without much probelms.
Scott


Scott W


Re: Digital is Dumb

ColinD hits it right on. I have been on both sides of this debate and
still use both film and digital. Lately my film has been mostly 645
format because I love the look and feel of taking these pictures.
Digital has a lot of advantages over film but this does not mean you
can't do both.
Thanks, Richard


Ully


Re: Digital is Dumb

Well Scott, where do I start . . . . hmmm . . . . at least you are
consistent.
Sure, I know some wedding shooters, and some stock imaging shooters who
only do JPEG. Basically, they streamline the workflow by only needing to
edit and cull out some shots. If it works, why not?
The processing power of the camera is no where near as good as the
processing power of a fairly new computer. This is the true advantage of
a RAW workflow, the ability to do more with the images later using more
capable hardware and software. People who like this often want to
accomplish something beyond the reason they pushed the shutter button.
It seems also to be used to correct mistakes in exposure, or as a
substitute for bracketing.
Some high end gear has allowed direct to CMYK file creation, basically
getting a ready to go to print file immediately from the digital back.
This is another workflow, though not available, nor used, by many pros.
Time spent in post processing is not time behind the camera.
Some professionals are hiring digital assistants to do the post
processing. There is still an editing need beyond just RAW conversion.
There are also some issues with RAW formats, something OpenRAW.org
discusses well. However, these are professional issues that would make
little difference to those not working as photographers.
So because it is easier you make "better images".
Yes, I try to derail these discussions because people miss that the
images should be more important than the technology. Unfortunately, on
equipment newsgroups, the technology is the emphasis much of the time.
Sure, anyone can have technical problems, miss getting focus on what
they wanted, get the exposure wrong, catch someone when their eyes
blinked, et al. There is also an issue in that sometimes you cannot get
close enough to a subject, or not wanting a subject to know you are
taking a photo.
It also seems that you are not capable of discussing any technical
merits of film. Feel free to state something positive about 35mm film,
and prove me wrong. ;-)
And try to note the :-) faces . . . . my writing style can often be to
provoke a response, but it depends upon your sense of humour.
Okay, so out of those, I liked
<http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/60883749>
Why? The composition caught my eye.
Okay, so out of those, the one that stood out to me was
<http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/59711105>
So what does this mean . . . not much really on a basis of technology or
equipment.
I think there has been decades of equipment hunting in pursuit of
imaging. Witness the many attempts at going to the same spots Ansel
Adams or Weston ventured, and trying to remake their photos from the
past. The funny thing is when you look at many now famous photographers
of the past, you can find quite a few that had equipment that was not
state of the art then, and even images that don't hold up to technical
scrutiny.
I think it would be wrong for me to imagine everyone liking everything I
do, or even a majority of people liking my images. I only need a few
people to like a few images in order to keep working, and slightly more
than that to get more work in the future.
Sorry if it seemed like an attack, but you have not been responsive
often without criticism. That in itself would not be constructive, so
perhaps it would be better of me to be constructive. You have to
understand that someone who works as a professional, or even someone who
exhibits fine art, gets tons of criticism on a regular basis. That tends
to develop a thick skin to comments, though I should strive better to
understand that not everyone gets that same thick skin.
So, my feeling is that your hundreds of images in a day, and unlimited
shooting potential with a D-SLR have not made you a "better"
photographer. You might think it did, or maybe gained some confidence
from the way you now approach imaging with a D-SLR. Remember, this is my
opinion, so no need to write out how you disagree. Anyway, if I were to
guess, the images you have that carry some appeal for others might have
been a result of you seeing something, then deciding to push the shutter
button. Outside of that, you might have sorted and edited to show
something of interest, which is a separate skill from taking the shot in
the first place. There are photographers much more well known than
either of us, who likely took far fewer images . . . not that thinking
more and shooting less works better, maybe it did for them, but mostly
because high volume is not a guarantee of "better" images.
I will agree that I could probably state things better. How's that?
What you will not find me doing it telling someone that they need a
certain camera, certain lens, or certain technology to do photography.
If someone finds a digital P&S to free up their creative inspirations,
or even a camera phone, I think that is far better than encouraging
someone towards something different. That is far from suggesting someone
try using a Digital P&S or a camera phone, or another extreme like
suggesting someone use a view camera with large format film.
Other technologies: a car will often be more comfortable and arguably
safer than many motorcycles, yet I would not discourage people from
riding motorcycles; even when choosing to drive a car, an automatic
transmission can be more convenient in traffic than a manual shift,
though many people enjoy using a manual shift transmission, so I would
try not to discourage people who want either.
Enjoyment of a certain camera could help some photographers. When
amateurs and enthusiasts do photography for the enjoyment of photography
(and not the gear), then the enjoyment hopefully will not become
obsolete. When someone does not enjoy using the camera(s) they own, then
the enjoyment is gone; maybe buying something could change that, or
perhaps there are other reasons.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>


Gordon Moat


Re: Digital is Dumb

Newsgroups are by nature heavily biased towards people who enjoy
technology. So technical merits can become the reasoning and only
discussion topics. There is also a high level of rhetoric on newsgroups,
and internet forums. Imagine a group of lawyers or politicians trying to
have a discussion, and you walked in after they had been at it for days
.. . . basically, getting a balanced view is probably difficult, so views
are polarized.
Extremely few people use both technologies. Another factor is that cost
and convenience become huge dividing aspects between users. However, I
think the greatest factor is people with an agenda. Sometimes they want
to justify their purchase by championing what they use; other times they
become an evangelist (digivangelist?) to their way of doing things with
an honest belief that their choice is best and right, or the only choice.
What usually gets missed is that we have choices at all. There are
advantages and disadvantages to film use and digital cameras, but it
would be rare for many people to ever point out these aspects. I would
bet some could not think of anything good about film usage, while others
could rarely say anything positive about digital cameras.
At least on this newsgroup, it started several years ago with a few
people buying a D-SLR, then wanting to tell everyone else about it. At
first there was a thought to go to the digital newsgroup, but many
complained that there were too many newbies there, too many cheap
digital P&S camera questions, or that they liked some of the responses
and posters on r.p.e.35mm better. Thus the digivangelist was created,
though justified to many because some of the lenses could be used on a
D-SLR or a 35mm film camera.
Another factor has been people selling film cameras in order to buy into
digital, or just enough budget to only buy the gear for one or another.
If you spent thousands on a D-SLR and some lenses, wouldn't you want
everyone else to know how great is it? This thinking also drives some of
the constant image postings here, especially those that champion which
camera was used to create the image.
My recent feeling is that these photography newsgroups have outlived
their useful lives. It might be near the time to dump Usenet entirely,
and go to moderated internet forums. Some ISPs are already considering
dumping their news servers, so why not jump ahead of that and go
elsewhere. Here are some suggestions:
<http://www.dpreview.com> forums largely dedicated to discussions of the
latest digital cameras
<http://www.photo.net> forums sometimes dedicated to discussing images,
though often cameras too
<http://www.apug.org> nearly exclusively film users, with very rare
digital anything mentioned
<http://www.largeformatphotography.info> mostly large format cameras,
with a mix of digital and film discussed
<http://www.luminouslandscape.com> generally digital capture, some high
end digital, a few evangelists
<http://www.robgalbraith.com> recently decimated, some items pay to use,
so-so discussions, mostly digital
There are also professional forums that PDN magazine runs, though not
much interest to someone not working as a photographer. Largely business
practices and images are more discussed than technology.
Ideally, I think people can use both film and digital to get the most
out of their photography. You will find rarely anyone here would agree
with that. It would be nice if people did not see this as an either/or
choice, but I think the time for that is long past on this newsgroup.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>


Gordon Moat


Re: Digital is Dumb

I have talk to some pros who simply have no idea about raw workflow,
this includes some who now shoot nothing but digital. In one case the
guy shoots the photos and his wife does all the image stuff out of the
camera.
consuming are the ones who have not taken the time to learn it.
For what it is worth I was photographing in Alsaka with a pro and we
got to talking about raw vs jpeg. He only shot jpeg and really never
though much about shooting raw. A bit after we talked he came back and
said, "hey Scott I am shooting raw". He seemed pretty happy about it.
The point here is that a lot of Pros simply have not spent the time to
fully realize the proper workflow for digital cameras.
I don't eat at Mcdonal's. But it seems that you are trying to make it
sould like
just because a digital workflow is easier then film it must produce
worse images.
This is not at all what I have seen.
You also have a tendency derail discussions about the technical merits
of digital vs. film by attacking people photographs. I try not to get
into the game of putting down others photos, it is pretty sad to see
you stooping to do so.
I enjoy photography and I am always trying to improve my photos. And
yes some of this improvement does come from better equipment.
These are some photos I took on our last trip, they may not be the
artistic type you seem to prefer but they are what I like.
http://www.pbase.com/konascott/alaska
These are some others samples that go over some years, I am still
adding to this list and yes there are photos from film here as well.
http://www.pbase.com/konascott/fromyears
I have looked at your photos and I am sure many people like them but
they are for the most part not to my taste. But just because they are
not what I like I don't attak you for them.
Gordon sometime you are totally full of BS. Old technologies are made
obsolete all the time but newer ones, this does not detract from the
works that were produced by the older technologies. As an example the
steel beams in skyscrapers use to be riveted together, now they are
bolted. Does this make the building that were riveted less good?, not
at all it is simple easier to use bolts.
So if digital can easily produce images that would take a lot of work
with film does not it make sense to use digital? I gave up on slide
rule with calculators came out, does this mean that I don't like
anything that was designed with the use of a slide rule?
You may not agree with what I say but don't you think it would be a
good idea to be at least somewhat civil in how you state your
disagreement?
Scott


Scott W


Re: Digital is Dumb

...... So we're looking at formats that can be
As is the Subject line and much of this thread.
--
john mcwilliams


John McWilliams


Re: Digital is Dumb

You are not a working pro, so you place a different value on your time.
You have also shown an agenda on all these newsgroup to push your views
forward, but I should expect no less from you going by your past postings.
Convenience. I bet you like McDonald's too. ;-)
Judging by the images you have posted, you could not make a "better
image" with any camera. Enjoy your "simpler workflow".
I guess you prove my assumption, and quite simply hate film, and hate
all images of the past. Perhaps if you just admit that it would make
discussions much simpler.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>


Gordon Moat


Content - Digital is Dumb
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