The Zeiss Myth...

I got this off of a side link from one Jeremy posted in the "Speaking
of Bokeh" thread. Hilights (blur circles may not be any thing or the
only thing to consider in bokeh (Zeiss lenses still have wonderfully
soft bokeh both sides of the focus plane) but if one were looking at
just hilight blur circles themeselves, both Nikon and the Cosina made
Zeiss may be something to steer clear of -- Pentax or Contax (Zeiss) or
Leica lenses instead anybody? :-)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/bokeh.htm
Of particular interest are the bottom paragraphs of Ken Rockwell's web
page that explain the Zeiss myth (as compared to the Nikon) and that
their hilight bokeh(s) are jokeh(s) and that their gaussian blurs are
currs (my phraseology) ;-) :-)
Too bad he didn't compare the 43mm Pentax Limited, the 40mm f/2?
Voigtlander SL lens (I know, not the same focal lengths as the rest of
the 50mm test lenses) and the Pentax 50/1.4 and 1.7 lenses against
those Nikon/Zeiss lenses but the test is already large and well done/a
service to people who care about bokeh (not to mention sharpness,
chromatic aberration and all the other factors he tested). Thanks Ken
for the test(s) (and Jeremy for the link).
Happy reading/viewing...

Thebokehking


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Nice pictures!
Maybe Zeiss should produce that two-element lens in Nikon mount.
;-)
Anyway, I was just annoyed with Jeremy for going on (and on and on and
on and on and on) about Zeiss because of one poorly done test report.


Chris Loffredo


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

"Chris Loffredo" <me@privacy.net> skrev i en meddelelse
No doubt that Zeiss in Germany makes exellent lenses. I use some om them on
my 500CM. And I have also tested my CFI 50/4 on my D2X (via an adapter)
and results are as good as with an AIS 50/1.8 using e.g. an apperture 5.6.
But it is a very big and expensive normal lens to carry around and you have
to
use stop down metering.
Zeiss has a resolution test at their homepage using a "Cosina" 50/1.4 and if
the
results are real then I don't think it can be possible if the lens has that
amount
of color abberation. But I think the lens which was tested was the version
made
for the ZX rangefinder on B/W film. So if the film is not sensitive for
red....then
maybe :-)
Max


Max Perl


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Here's a comparison I did of $300 vs $1700 Nikkor zooms at around 100mm:
I think I'd rather pocket the $1300 dollars, and live with the, "bad
bokeh"....Although the f/2.8 might be worth the extra money, if you needed
it......In any case, the difference in bokeh, (which can be fixed in
Photoshop) is minor, to me.


William Graham


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

It is possible, just a little complex.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/bokeh.shtml
http://www.flarg.com/bokeh.html
Those links mostly talk about ways to quantify the degree of donut ring
versus soft edge which is indeed not a simple thing to measure. A
standard test might look something like the luminous-landscape link's
pinhole graphs done at various distances and apertures. Then graph the
results on something like MTF charts. Rockwell's test was not that
thorough but he did a nice job of picking at least one typical
meaningful OOF scene and comparing various Nikon 50mm lens options. I'm
surprised how little difference there is! It would have been more
interesting to throw in some really cheap zooms to show that there
really can be a difference.
Other factors like roundness of aperture blade are straightforward.
Degree of cat eye effect could presumably be measured and designed for.
I'm really only interested in Nikon options but I googled around & saw
some Leica noctor 50mm f/1 samples that looked super creamy soft to me,
even in the most harsh shooting conditions like bright lights at night
but it had a dizzying cat's eye effect so I guess some people think
that's too freaky looking, plus it has severe vignetting and isn't
particularly sharp wide open. So there's always a trade-off. The Nikkor
35mm f/1.4 has some really awful donut ring bokeh wide open plus the
cat's eye thing so it really does look freaky but it's capable of
shooting that wide and it's supposed to be razor sharp stopped down just
a bit.
It seems most decent Nikkors don't have too much of a donut ring problem
except under the most difficult conditions, the OOF circles are evenly
illuminated but their edges are crisp lines so that can produce somewhat
odd looking out of focus backgrounds. If I add a teleconverter and or
closeup lens I can see things go downhill pretty quickly and the donuts
raise their ugly heads. My new 105 micro seems better than anything else
I've tried which makes sense given it's not a zoom and not cheap. It
holds up to the TC & closeup lens better than the fantabulous 70-200
zoom. My new manual focus 45/2.8 P has nice round circles at any
aperture, it seems a bit sharper than the 70-200 and with
similar/typical Nikkor bokeh circles.
Here's a comparison I did of $300 vs $1700 Nikkor zooms at around 100mm:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/bokeh/compare&PG=1&PIC=1>
but as I recall the cheap zoom did OK at around 50mm and it's possible
to get nice bokeh out of it at 200mm. But you can clearly see a
difference in this test. This could be charted & graphed.
I *would* like something for an f-mount that could do creamy soft-edged
OOF circles. Perhaps an 85mm f/1.4 or something like that or a $2,000
28mm f/1.4 (ha ha). I would hope that one doesn't have harsh bokeh! I
just got an old 28mm f/2 AI-S and we'll see how that does, sample photos
all seemed quite reasonable & it was only $200.
I'm still not clear if I can get a screw mount adapter without
additional corrective glass in it to use old 3rd party lenses but it
doesn't appear to be an option. There's always lensbabies though I'm not
sure how often I'd want a total blurry mess, it might be fun occasionally.
My Sigma 12-24 makes hideous donuts but I have to really try to get
anything out of focus at 12mm so that's not a big problem. It's nice &
rectalinear though and full frame if that ever becomes useful. A
17-35/2.8 would be nice, probably typical stern looking Nikkor bokeh
though and too similar to the 12-24 in range for me to fork out for that
one now.
--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com


Paul Furman


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Yeah, lots, on Rollies and Hasselblads. And a Zeiss
research microscope. Oh, and a Nettar and Box
Tengor - though there is half a chance that Novars are
really Rodenstocks and the Frontars were by Goerz.
I don't know what this 35mm Cossina labeled 'Zeiss' to fit a
Nikon thing is. It seems to be a good lens, but then there
are so many good lenses what's the big deal - it's just one
more of many.
Except for some of my formative photos done with a 127 Imperial
Satellite I don't know of any [at least none come to
mind] pictures where I look at it and say - 'If only
the photographer had used a better lens this would
be a great shot'.
Taken with a Zeiss camera:
http://kochi-med.net/moto/camera/camera_repair/box_tengor/sample/index.htm
It's this Zeiss camera:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zeiss_ikon_box_tengor_sst.jpg
[or maybe this one]
http://kochi-med.net/moto/camera/camera_repair/box_tengor/
And the lens is all of two elements.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


Nicholas O. Lindan


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

JE-RE-MY... Have-you-ever-used-some-Zeiss-lenses-for-any-period-of-time?
You know nothing about Zeiss except for one lens (one sample) which an
incompetent, exhibitionist megalomaniac "tested" on his web site.


Chris Loffredo


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

One may measure a lenses' resolution at a particular point on its
covered field, when focused at a particular distance, with a particular
type of light using a particular type of media.
Taking for granted that focus errors (or varying focus "strategies"),
collimation error, movement, sample variation and a few other factors
aren't influencing the result.
I've done a lot of lens testing and I can tell you:
I have a couple of Zeiss lenses with not-so-good bokeh. They luckily
tend to fill roles where bokeh isn't especially important.
<BIG SNIP of a rant which be be the opposite in about two weeks time>
Yes (though not immediately noticeable).
Or better build quality?
Yes (though not immediately noticeable).
And, if such lenses do exist, what do
More than the Takumars, but not necessarily outrageous sums.
Do you *need* "better" lenses than your Takumars?
Why do you keep agonizing over this subject?
I know what lenses I like, I know what lenses I'll get soon and I know
what lenses I dream about and might never afford...


Chris Loffredo


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

It was quite an eye-opener for me, too. I think that most of us suspected
all along that Zeiss was not all that superior, but to actually see the
photos was to debunk the myth.
I was even more surprised to read his assessment of Zeiss' build quality
over that of Nikon's. What is it that customers are paying so much for, if
not top-notch build quality and measurably-superior optical performance?


Jeremy


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

That would be a subjective evaluation, it would not be empirical.
One may measure a lens' resolution and assign a numerical value to it, which
may be directly compared to that of other lenses. It is not possible to
assign an empirical measurement to bokeh, as there are no accepted standards
of measurement.
Leica, for one, has stated that they design a lens around what they feel is
the optimal balance of numerous factors. If the bokeh turns out to be good,
then so be it. But they do not design for good bokeh, at the expense of
other optical characteristics that they feel are important.
Zeiss, at least judging from their advertising, emphasizes bokeh. Their
Planar design for normal lenses has always required cemented surfaces,
ususlly between the 4th and 5th element. This cementing slightly decreases
sharpness while producing a slight amount of aberration that produces
pleasing bokeh.
Nikon lenses typically have emphasized sharpness (I read that it came out of
their having produced precision optics for use by the Japanese during WWII.
The goal was to create sharp lenses with excellent resolving power, not to
worry about OOF elements of the image.)
I cannot come up with a photo scenario that requires bokeh for landscape
shots. Landscapes typically require getting as much into focus as possible.
What do Holgas have to do with bokeh?
I think you are confusing "reportage" with "portraiture."
I am not planning on buying into the Pentax digital system. In fact, I keep
wavering on whether to bother with a DSLR at all. The Canon G7 (advanced
P&S) has more than I need, and I still have my film SLRS if I require
special lens applications, like macros or super-wide angles.
And, every time I read Dante Stella's assessment of the "Film vs. Digital"
argument, I come away wondering why I even bother *thinking* about adding
more digital capability over and above the digital P&S that I bought in
2000. It still takes very nice photos, and I use it only for snaps--
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/digital.html
The only advantage that digital holds for me is that I can see and edit my
images without the need to first develop the film and scan it. Considering
that my local photofinisher develops a roll of C-41 for $2.50 (no prints),
and I is open 24/7, and that I can wait for the film to be processed in just
15 minutes, rather than driving home and then back later, the time delay
factor is not significant for me. And my scanner digitizes an entire roll
at one time, rather than requiring that I insert only 4 or 5 frames at a
time (my photofinisher returns my negs uncut, at my request), so all I have
to do is to start the roll in the scanner and come back in 2 hours.
I am a low-volume shooter, and as an amateur I have no concerns over meeting
any kind of deadlines for editors. Since I already own about a dozen camera
bodies and close to 20 lenses (many of which were absolutely superb when
they were originally manufactured, and have continued to produce great
results) I just don't see a net gain in migrating over to a DSLR, with its
plastic-barreled zoom lenses. What (digital) lens out there is going to
blow away my SMC Takumar 100mm f/4 Macro, with its incredible bokeh,
corner-to-corner sharpness and beautiful resolving power? What digital zoom
lens is going to produce images that are discernably superior to those
recorded on my SMC Takumar normal lenses (I have 7 of them--in f/1.4, 1.8
and 2.0, and in 50mm and 55mm, plus f/1.7 and f/2 "A" lenses)???
Granted, my situation is not typical of that of most amateurs, but why would
a guy in my circumstances abandon all that great gear in favor of some
generally-overpriced zoom lenses?
Now if you are the type
I own a very serviceable Velbon tripod, with a ball head (great for keeping
those horizons level, without having to struggle with all those individual
pan head adjustments) and I almost always trip my shutters using the
self-timers. I also have a cheap, $15.00 Vivitar tripod, that I picked up 7
years ago at Wal-Mart, that is extremely lightweight and easy to tote around
virtually everywhere. This may sound like heresy, but that tripod has
proven itself to be an essential tool, because it is so light that it is no
problem to take along. Thus I am able to make virtually every shot a tripod
shot. Granted, it is flimsy, but it still results in images that are much
sharper than if I had shot hand-held. No tripod has value is it is too
cumbersome to take along, and I think that more people should try cheap,
lightweight backup tripods, for those times when they would ordinarily be
shooting hand-held.
Then there is the undocumented mirror lockup on Spotmatics and ES bodies
(tap the shutter button very quickly, and the meter locks up without
tripping the shutter. A second, slower, press of the shutter button trips
the shutter while the mirror is locked up. The mirror returns to normal
position after the shot is completed.)
Somehow I have managed to get by all this time without anti-shake. Even
taking into account the convenience of anti-shake, will I produce sharper
images than I do with my current setup? Probably not.
I am not a pro, and I have become comfortable in knowing who I am and what
my real requirements are. Landscape photographers are fortunate in that
their needs are extremely modest. I can't see myself buying a "Pro" DSLR,
because I already have so many SLRs. A photographer that does the kind of
work that I do needs only a few essentials:
* A steady tripod
* A proper lens shade
* Excellent quality filters (Pentax Skylight, UV and Polarizer are all I
use)
* A really good LENS (I am a big fan of normal lenses--I could get by with
just a 50mm f/1.4)
* A cable release
* A hand-held light meter (optional)
On the digital (post-shoot) end, all I need is
* A good film scanner
* An online printing service (I don't print at home. I prefer silver halide
prints, not inkjet or dye-sub)
* Editing software (PSP XI has more functionality than I need. I have PS
5.5, but I never found myself turning to PS, so I never bothered to upgrade
it all these years)
The now-discontinued Kodak Photo CD scanned with 2048 x 3072 resolution, and
had a DMAX, as I recall, of something like 2.2. And processors were
charging around $1-$2 per frame. I can scan at 50% higher resolution and
DMAX of 3.6, and I can do a roll in two hours, without the need to drop off
and pick up scanned film. And my only cost is that of the blank CD.
Considering my modest requirements, would I be better off in any significant
way by migrating to a DSLR? I still can't justify the move in my mind.
And, the most ironic thing of all, I believe that my current (35-year-old)
setup consists of better imaging potential than today's "digital" lenses.
No worries over moire, no need for the lens to be dumbed-down, probably less
optical distortion than current zoom lenses produce, multicoating that is
second-to-none, and descriptive power that probably exceeds that of current
lenses for digital cameras. (We don't know, because it is difficult or
impossible to see lens test data on these new lenses).
Bokeh? Are there any current lenses that have better bokeh than the SMC
Takumars? Or better build quality? And, if such lenses do exist, what do
they cost?


Jeremy


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

SNIP
I think you are being too dismissive of just how an important link in
the chain lens quality is and possibly (as you state below) emphasizing
too much the other factors...
As
Above a certain point of MP/formatting "bokeh is bokeh". Few DSLRs have
less than 5MP these days, in fact the bottom rung is at 6MP (and will
probably be 8 or 10 MP by next year). Regardless of RAW vs. jpeg, at 6
MP, heck even at 3 or 4 MP, if memory serves, there should be enough
resolution to accurately portray the bokeh characteristics of any DSLR
lens.
I suspect that the ability to
Here I agree with you. But so long as the "image processor" (boy how do
I hate that phrase, reminds me of a digital sausage maker (un-)photo
quality paid $5.25 for mediocre results at your average drug store lab)
does his job and doesn't mangle it up the bokeh characteristics of a
DSLR lens should come shining through (or not, depending on the lens of
course).


Thebokehking


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