The Zeiss Myth...

I got this off of a side link from one Jeremy posted in the "Speaking
of Bokeh" thread. Hilights (blur circles may not be any thing or the
only thing to consider in bokeh (Zeiss lenses still have wonderfully
soft bokeh both sides of the focus plane) but if one were looking at
just hilight blur circles themeselves, both Nikon and the Cosina made
Zeiss may be something to steer clear of -- Pentax or Contax (Zeiss) or
Leica lenses instead anybody? :-)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/bokeh.htm
Of particular interest are the bottom paragraphs of Ken Rockwell's web
page that explain the Zeiss myth (as compared to the Nikon) and that
their hilight bokeh(s) are jokeh(s) and that their gaussian blurs are
currs (my phraseology) ;-) :-)
Too bad he didn't compare the 43mm Pentax Limited, the 40mm f/2?
Voigtlander SL lens (I know, not the same focal lengths as the rest of
the 50mm test lenses) and the Pentax 50/1.4 and 1.7 lenses against
those Nikon/Zeiss lenses but the test is already large and well done/a
service to people who care about bokeh (not to mention sharpness,
chromatic aberration and all the other factors he tested). Thanks Ken
for the test(s) (and Jeremy for the link).
Happy reading/viewing...

Thebokehking


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Bokeh can be quantified.
It's not that mysterious.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/images/hm-Fig6.jpg
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/bokeh.shtml
http://www.flarg.com/bokeh.html
--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com


Paul Furman


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Without trying to protract the discussion, I was merely pointing out that
bokeh is a subjective thing. It cannot be quantified objectively. To say,
essentially, "I know good bokeh when I see it" is hardly measurable
empirically.
If bokeh could be measured, then we could spot trends between different
lenses, or even different brands. As it stands now, we must look at how
various lenses render OOF objects and judge for ourselves.
I believe that this question came up when we were discussing debunking
Zeiss' claims of having superior bokeh. Rockwell's comparison shots
revealed that the Nikon lenses did not take a back seat to Zeiss' lens.
Given the cost of the Zeiss lens, versus the cost of readily-available used
Nikkors, one wondered at just what it was that Zeiss was selling. It
certainly did not appear to be image quality that was significantly superior
to what Nikon users had been accustomed to for decades.
Yet, if you review Zeiss' web site, and their printed brochures, they always
claim to make lenses that are demonstrably superior to other brands. They
tout their T* multicoating (they even claim that they use some proprietary
process to match color balance on all of their lenses via the multicoating)
as being superior, they have been making claims that some of their lenses
have beaten the LPM of competitors' (a claim that Erwin Puts has ridiculed),
and they virtually always claim that their lenses have "beautiful bokeh," as
though theirs were significantly better than anyone else's. Once we sweep
aside all of the advertising hype, and the myths that have grown up about
Zeiss over the years, we look at the images produced by their lenses and
ask, "where's the beef?"
They may have the Zeiss brand on them, but it sure seems that they perform
like Cosina . . .
Should we all now abandon our OEM lenses and "upgrade" to CZ? Not this boy!


Jeremy


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

"Chris Loffredo" <me@privacy.net> wrote
There is a similarity here:
Some listeners do not like superb amplifiers with very
low objective distortion and believe amplifiers that
distort > 1% sound better. This leaves lots of room
for horse races between bad electronics as there are
so many more ways to something badly than to do it well.
Ditto lenses: high resolution lenses have lousy bokeh because
they have sharply defined, and often crenellated, image
circles designed to produce high resolution.
Looking for bokeh in Zeiss and Nikon glass is like looking
for 'structured white-timbered three dimensionality' in a
McIntosh amplifier: there isn't any.
"Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places"
Soft-focus portrait lenses should be a better place
to look for bokeh: Imagon, Verito, Veritar, Petzval,
Rembrandt... To bad when it comes to '35' these lenses
are talking inches, not millimeters.
The 60's produced some close-up-lens-in-a-toilet-paper-tube
portrait lenses; 'Sima' comes to mind and I think there
were others - Spiratone made one ...
The only current offering I know of is the LensBaby.
It might be cool to evaluate all the odd-ball lenses
for bokeh. Surely a lot cheaper ...
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


Nicholas O. Lindan


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

But that still tells you nothing about how good the amplifier sounds...


Chris Loffredo


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

You canhave all the empiracle datain the world but a lens's
There is NO universally-accepted standard for measuring bokeh, unlike
measuring LPM or measuring the amount of pincushion distortion.
We may know good bokeh when we see it, but it is not possible to express the
amount and the quality of bokeh as a numerical measurement, unlike, say,
stereo amplifiers, whose power output can be measured, and compared one
against the other, in terms of RMS watts.


Jeremy


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

Empiracle data doesn't exist in a vaccuum. There must be a mind to
evaluate, interpret and/or use it to some end, a subjective mind. In
either case, Paul Furman's post and links have probably said everything
I was about to say on this point (pardon the pun). Whether you use a
set of numbers, a diagram/graph (is it sagital vs. tangential MTF
curves that indicate bokeh and/or spherical aberration or both, my
memory fails me on this) or a photo as the means to carry "empiracle
data", bokeh (at least one aspect of it) can be easily seen in the
light distribution pattern within a blur circle or line patterns (ie.
gaussian blur soft edged evenly illuminated discs, de-doubled lines,
etc.). You canhave all the empiracle datain the world but a lens's
bokeh is either to your taste/purpose(s) or it isn't.
Yes, it is. See above and Paul Furman's post too. I don't know why you
are so hooked on numbers (perhaps overly influence by resolution
tests?) but whatever floats your boat :-)
Actually with Leica's current set of lenses its the other way round.
Their reformulated Asph (aspherical) lenses sacrifice smoothness of
bokeh for sharpness wide open. The 35mm f/2 Summicron 4th/last
generation and the 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M mount lenses verses their ASPH
counterparts are often cited examples of this new(ish) Leica trend.
Before this (1990's? till present) Leica lens's bokeh was a big factor
in the "Leica look" (still is to some extent) - how do you know they
didn't or don't design for good bokeh which is balanced against but not
at the expense of other lens attributes? Do you really know their
optical trade offs?
I can argue neither for nor against this point as I don't see how
cementing elements, other than some kind of general haze-like
non-spherical aberration soft focus effect would create any kind of
aberration, slight or otherwise. It would be like putting a slightly
dirty window inside the lens wouldn't it? - I don't see how it would
bend light rays differently to cause the slight undercorrected
spherical aberration that would engender "good bokeh".
Ironically? some early Nikon rangefinder lenses had really pleasing
bokeh (numbers, graphs and empiracle data aside).
Shall I say "crappy" or less well corrected lenses like the Holgas tend
to introduce their own set of very stylized/"artistic" lens aberrations
to the image to give it a certain soft focus (spherical aberration?)
look. Scan the web, if you want, for Holga, Diana and or Len Baby shots
and you'll catch my drift. The lens defects give a very moody look to
landscape shots.
Reportage includes portraiture as part of its umbrella. Not every shot
is a group shot taken with a 17-45 lens at f/16. Portraiture is not
limited to the K-Mart or upscale portrait studios.
If your needs are satisfied by that particular game plan then more
power to you :-). Just trying to offer you a way to keep your Pentax
lens gear and enter the digital DSLR arena with minimal financial pain.
Neither do I.But as you probably know, not all Pentax's AF lenses past
or present are plastic. Especially the current Limited edition (as well
as some current FA*, A*, A, M, K, and screw mount lenses of course)
with many built to high optical/mexhanical standards.
What (digital) lens out there is going to
See above.
No reason, other than you wanting to make Pentax rich allover again
;-).
Good idea. A paint can tied as a weight to the tripod or some downward
pressure applied to the camera on the tripod can add "image
stabilisation" to the ricketiest of pods.
I've done the same thing with a Leicaflex when I owned it. Good trick.
Only for those shots where a tripod (due to topography (rocky/uneven
terrain, tight spaces, etc.) or some other reason/encumbrance) would be
impractical and flash (of course, with most landscapes) is not an
option.
Film helps too ;-)
Well then you know your needs and your current equipment, it seems, for
the most part, satisfies those needs.
Tony would beg to differ with you, he tends to think that Pentax lenses
have more (barrel?) distortion.
multicoating that is
35mm format lenses (all with excellent SMC coatings) will work on the
Pentax DSLRs too.
(We don't know, because it is difficult or
Pop may test them, but my standards are much higher than their ratings
it would seem...
Leica. Zeiss. Current Pentax lenses such as the 85/1.4 FA*, possibly
the 77mm f/1.8 Limited, 50/1.4 FA (probably, other than me,
"thebokehking" of lenses ;-)) and my 20-35/4 FA when focused close and
used wide open has beautiful bokeh too - there are probably other but I
don't own every current or near current Pentax lens, just wish I did
;-). Some of the new 4/3 Olympus lenses have "Leica worthy" (if not
Pentax worthy bokeh.
Or better build quality? And, if such lenses do exist, what do
A lot :-) ;-)
You seem to know what you want to do and how to achieve it with the
gear you want. But if you ever did want to go the DSLR route, don't
discount Pentax's current DSLR efforts. They are very competitive (more
so in some areas such as price (under $1000 for the pro body and about
$350 for one of the amature bodies) vs. the usefulness (perhaps not to
you but to others) of the features you get for those low prices (IE.
anti-shake with any lens built into two of the bodies and water
proofing built into the pro model). And as mentioned, there are many
Pentax lenses that, though not as highly well built (othe than the
Limiteds and perghaps some FA* lenses) are no small shakes (pardon the
pun) optically bokehwise, anti-flare coatings wise, sharpness-wise,
etc.).


Thebokehking


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

"Chris Loffredo" <me@privacy.net> wrote
Oh, I wasn't responding to anyone in particular, it was just
in general to the thread.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


Nicholas O. Lindan


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

You are probably right, because I am not a real, "photographer", but just a
part time hobbyist. But we do what we enjoy doing, and I love "fixing"
things in Photoshop. Probably just as much as taking pictures. So an
inferior lens is a useful tool to me, since it creates an image that needs
work, and that's fun for me to do. I even find myself working on other
people's stuff that was taken with even less expertise than I am capable of.
My favorite lens is the 24-120 mm non-VR zoom. - I don't care what it
doesn't allow....I'm gonna fix it up in Photoshop anyhow!


William Graham


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

It's really not that easy to fix in photoshop... quite difficult, nearly
impossible in some cases and it is often quite important to my style of
photography. Plus the fancy lens has VR and is sharper and AF quicker, etc.
I'll give you a good price on the cheap one <grin>.
--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com


Paul Furman


Re: The Zeiss Myth...

I'd actually be curious to know (not that I'm into 50mm lenses so much).
There should be no physical reason for the ZN & ZX versions to be
different (no need for retrofocus construction with an ordinary 50mm).
Hopefully, soon someone will carry out a more competent test.


Chris Loffredo


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