Digital prints from negatives

I live in a city with two recognized, well-established, "real" photo shops,
which sell cameras, lenses, darkroom chemicals etc, have apparently
knowledgeable staff and do processing. Both have good reputations, founded
in pre-digital days, but neither seems capable of producing a simple, decent
4x6 print from a scanned negative, despite endless publicity hype about
their levels of skill and service.
On first glance, at arm's length, prints seem bright and sharp. But just a
cursory closer examination, even without a loupe, shows a complete lack of
detail ,especially in shadows (e.g. you can't read a street sign in the
middle distance), unnatural and inaccurate colours, thick sharpening lines
that provide only an illusion of sharpness, and a noticible overall
fuzziness. I don't think this is down to my photo technique since I've been
into photography for 30+ years, including darkroom work, and have hundreds
of sharp prints made optically. (One of the stores can still produce optical
prints, which are certainly of a higher quality than their digital. But
they seem reluctant to do this and are phasing the service out). I've tried
going further afield - mailing film to approved "Kodak Labs" through
drugstores etc. Same outcome - lousy prints. (BTW both labs do produce good
enough digital prints from original digital images).
So what's the problem? I know from reading this and other discussion groups
that very good prints from scanned negs are possible. If amateurs can do it
on relatively downmarket equipment, why can't professionals on top of the
line equipment? Do they lack technical knowledge, do they simply not care,
do they scan at the lowest possible resolution to save time and effort, or
what? Or are my experiences unique (doubt it!) I can't be bothered getting
into home scanning and I still like to use color negative film for handiness
and its exposure latitute. But I'm frustrated in trying to find good quality
prints.
An additional downside - over the years I've built up a nice collection of
35mm gear (Nikon, Pentax, Olympus). But what's the point in selecting your
favourite Nikkor or Takumar lens, and preferred film for some particular
project, if it's all going wind up as a lowest-common-denominator poor
quality print. Might as well use a plastic lens Kodak disposable camera!
This is not a film v. digital rant , but a genuine query on the difficulty
in getting good commercial prints from scanned negs.

Norm Fleming


Re: Digital prints from negatives

SNIP
Besides my own observed preference, only reported user evidence from
the Qimage forum at Yahoo, and from the Printing forum at DPreview,
and the Open Photography Forum, and possibly some others (I don't keep
track).
There is a potential difference between the internal printer (driver)
scaling methods used to reach the native printer resolution (at which
the dithering method is optimized). Some printers therefore show
larger differences than others, which has to do with the interpolation
method (bilinear versus something more accurate), and the amount of
interpolation needed for the output size.
SNIP
Depends on your source material, high resolution film scans have
plenty of pixels, but digicams may benefit from a little help going to
the 600 or 720 ppi native printer resolution they are capable of.
Indeed, the printer drivers may use a lower resolution or coarser
dithering, depending on driver settings for paper, but then Qimage
interrogates the printer driver for that and uses the appropriate
resolution, without additional need for further printer driver
interpolation.
--
Bart


Bart van der Wolf


Re: Digital prints from negatives

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 23:57:05 +0100, "Bart van der Wolf"
Do you have evidence that they really do?
I have a lot of respect for Mike Chaney, and
I know Qimage has a lot of fans. Even so,
I've gotten along fine without it all these years.
Bart, you'll forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.
Maybe this is something I should investigate
further. For prints up to 13x19" nowadays,
I usually have no need for upsampling.
For prints larger than that, I'm usually printing
on matte paper, and I'd be amazed if that
paper could physically hold a resolution
better than 360 dpi -- if that. In any case,
I don't expect folks to be grain-sniffing a
24x36" print.
rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com


Raphael Bustin


Re: Digital prints from negatives

SNIP
Ah, but that is exactly what what makes people prefer Qimage prints
over Photoshop prints! 360 PPI is equal to 7.1 cycles/mm, which is
almost the limit of visual acuity.
The additional pixel printed 'in between', allows to further sharpen
the edges or smooth gradients. It also allows to exploit Vernier
acuity, i.e. resolution in excess of what can be resolved by eye.
--
Bart


Bart van der Wolf


Re: Digital prints from negatives

But ppi means nothing to a digital file, only to a print, so how can
you say scanning this print and then changing its ppi loses detail? If
you're also resizing it, well then yeah, you're likely to lose detail.
If you're saying scanning it at 300 ppi rather than 400 ppi loses
detail, ok, I'll take your word for it, but that's not the same thing
as printing it at a certain number of pixels per inch, that's a
scanning thing. And I do wish Rafe would quit substituting dpi for ppi
as they do not relate. And while I'm on Rafe's posts: I should buy a
newer printer and run my tests again. I pretty much quit using my
Epson as I just send those few enlargements I want to Kodak Gallery
online, so I probably won't worry about it.


Niceparking@gmail.com


Re: Digital prints from negatives

Were it only so.
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.


Alan Browne+


Re: Digital prints from negatives

Well I did show you a print that clearly has more then 300 ppi of
detail, just what do you want?
Scott


Scott W


Re: Digital prints from negatives

No, the point is, you're talking smack. Have you got anything other
than your mouth/keyboard to back up what you're saying?


Niceparking@gmail.com


Re: Digital prints from negatives

So whether they are printing from your digital files or the scans they
do of your film they are printing from digital files. I would have
expected that if you controlled the generation of the digital file (do
your own scan) that the results would have been more consistent.
Scott


Scott W


Re: Digital prints from negatives

They stopped doing optical prints long (10+ years?) ago. This does not
explain why the 35mm prints were (in the main) good 3+ years ago and now
I get luck or not.
--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.


Alan Browne


Re: Digital prints from negatives

Must be the differances in the labs. Do you know if the labs you are
using scan the negatives as part of the workflow or are they doing
optical prints?
Scott


Scott W


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